This new person contributed a few posts that got my undivided attention since he agreed with everything I was saying about the CIA and the "powers that be." I was delighted that someone who thought like me actually existed "out there", so on an impulse I sent him a query, which resulted in an exchange of letters, some of which are related below in edited versions ( I'll call him Gregory, which is not his real name):

Gregory,

Yeah, as usual I agree with almost everything you say. I am aware of the homogeneity of Sweden as opposed to the USA. I am also aware of the fact that there has been a self selecting process when it comes to which people left Europe and which people stayed in Europe. Those genetically inclined towards aggression, competition, greed and those qualities that make for a good American came here while the more even tempered and sanguine stayed behind. No wonder social democracy succeeded back home while it is a curse here! I am aware that the self determination of this country was based on a tax revolt and nothing less. The soil is not fertile for a communal interpretation of the message of Christ.

Yet people are people . Take my father as one example, a farmer back home, he hated the social democrats his whole life. Like here, there is a division almost 50/50 whether you belong to the left or you belong to the right. The BIG difference is that the right back home never allowed themselves extracurricular activities to remain in power. They played it straight and fair. If they lost an election they lost it. They didn’t have the ruthlessness and covert abilities have characterize the American Right. ( I am reminded of the Russian coup attempt in 1991, the communists wanted back in power so they put Gorbatjov under house arrest while they clumsily tried to achieve power. ( If it had been the CIA, the first thing would have been Gorbatjov’s execution along with some great cover story).

It is a historical fact, that what you call the Merchant class here in the US had great sympathies for fascism during the first half of the century. The Merchant Class here also had no compunctions about using its power any way they saw fit. The combination of this class with modern intelligence activities has been lethal. It is probably the way of nature that the biggest "bully on the block" will use any method that pleases him. The British Empire has left rather a benign image to the New World, although it also financed its adventures by the sale of drugs (opium). The American inheritor of empire has learned how to combine fascism with public relations in such a way that the great majority of people think we live in the best of democracies! What incredible skill!

Back to the tax problems of the right wing here in the US. I have always seen the philosophy of the Repugnant Party like this: "I’ve got mine and don’t make me share anything with you" and tend to see basic selfishness as the motive behind their tax arguments. I can assure you that if these people lived in Sweden instead (where the taxes go to social benefits instead of to armaments or whatever) they would still be in the forefront of tax resisters. I am aware of the fact that in lieu of taxes as source of revenue , the government here choose to finance some of their extra curricular activities with the importation and sales of drugs, thus causing incredible damage to sectors of our society and to individuals thrown in jail at the same time for possession of drugs. Another example, the Reagan "trickle down economy" as opposed to Keynesian deficit stimulation of the economy. My god, they claim it was trickle down when in fact it was massively Keynes, the source of economic stimulation coming from corrupt "Savings and Loans" and debt! I always say, the Republicans should be in charge of future recessions because they have found the answer, let anybody purchase banks and we will be in good economic shape right away. Of course we will have to pay for the damage later but that is the only way Americans will allow themselves to be taxed! The ingenuity of the American ruling class is enormous.

But back to the future of the CIA and its sisters. I am not sure anything can be done at all except for raising the awareness among the public and maybe shame them somehow into better behavior. (Good luck). Sometimes I think that a modern economy (and old too) need the stimulant of spending for weapons and the destruction of these weapons in war with the demand for their replacement, etc. Sometimes I think our leaders learned a hell of a lot from Hitler, even from his failures. Why don't you check this web site: (a reference to a web site no loner valid, claiming that Roosevelt was assassinated when he learned that Allan Dulles had engineered a deal with the Nazis during the final months of WWII)!

John,

It is indeed entirely possible, even likely, that lots of major figures in America (and not only in politics but in other areas like music) get offed by "secret" agencies, of which the CIA itself may be the "outer guard" that deals most often with "civilians." Did Roosevelt get assassinated? Entirely possible. Did some (including Hitler) hope that FDR's death would save Hitler's bacon? Sure. I have always assumed that there was some kind of secret deal with the Nazis at the end of WWII, because so many of them (probably including Hitler) escaped punishment through America's good graces -- but subsequent history demonstrates that the "deal" was a "conditional surrender" and not an alliance. At the end of WWII, even with Truman in power, Germany was split in two and the large part became a piece of the American economic and military empire and the rest was absorbed by the U.S.S.R. The Nazis didn't just lose Germany's sovereignty, they also lost their central ideological point when their victorious enemy, America, proceeded after the war (inspired by Germany's example of what lies down the road of hatred?) to transform itself from a country that had always generally supported racism and sexism to one that now generally abhors expressions of such sentiments.

And Stalin himself was a rat. How many tens of millions of dead people do you have to be responsible for *in your own country* before the rest of the world has the right to protect itself against you?

Also, as is usual with such material, it gets carried away with itself: "New World Order" may have been a book by Hitler in 1941, but the Latin phrase for "New World Order," Novum Ordo Seclorum, has been on American money longer than that, and the phrase dates back to 1776 (admittedly with attribution to both the Bavarian Illuminati and American patriots). As for Hitler's fate, even my spouse has seen pictures of the "dead body of Hitler" and concluded that it wasn't him -- but I wouldn't place him in Virginia. I would put my money on the supermarket tabloid version that placed him in tropical Brazil, working with natives until his death, especially after Bormann's corpse showed up in Brazil. But it is always fun to read such materials, and I appreciate the reference.

I like your theory about the difference between people willing to cross the ocean to start life from scratch in a wilderness and people who (sensibly) chose to stay put. I see the same principle in operation within the United States itself, with people in the West being much more adventurous, free-spirited, and open to change than people in the East.

What all of our alternate histories show is what you say directly: American politics is corrupt, with bought-and-paid-for politicians doing the will of the financiers, corporations, or foreign governments that ante the most campaign cash. I guess I consider the whole political play to be just that: theater. David Rockefeller, the bogeyman of the article you referred me to, is certainly more powerful in every real way than, e.g., President Clinton or some Senator. But as much as I respect the Financier World Conquest ("FWC") theory, I also subscribe to other theories that make the focus of the FWC theory seem narrow, and that make even Rockefellers and Mellons seem insignificant.

Sure, the Merchant Class played both sides of the street with the Nazis and Italian Fascists. (I still tell people about how ITT was registered as a German corporation under the Third Reich at the same it was registered as an American corporation in Delaware, so that it could protect its property no matter who won the war, and no matter whose troops posed the threat to that property). And the Fords financed Hitler because they were America's favorite anti-Semites. But the American Merchant Class also, and even predominantly, played the "bourgeois democracy" side of the street as well, partly because it's good business to be on the winning side, but also partly the Anglo-American system is more consistent with vibrant Merchant Class rule.

I don't know how I feel about the historic victory of the Merchant Class in destroying its traditional opponents, the Aristocrats, Churchmen, and Generals. Given the history of the last 2,000 years, an argument could be made that someone besides the preexisting butchers needed to be given a chance to rule, even if they were wet behind the ears. As for the efforts of some movements (Communism, Socialism, Social Democracy) to represent "oppressed workers," the problem is that a rural agricultural peasantry has different needs and demands that unskilled workers, who in turn have different needs and demands than an industrial labor force or an "information age" labor force. Hence, the party "fighting oppression" gets lost in the internal tensions of the coalition of classes it actually represents. Political and social forces representing the Merchant Class do not have the same intensity or seriousness of "internal" conflicts, making it easier for them to achieve their broad goals. But I refer you back to my "Neo-Marxist" rap in the Choate thread for what may be the natural limitations of Merchant Class predation.

Reagan was the greatest Keynesian of modern times; he made FDR look like a piker when it came to running up debt. As for the "trickle down" theory, it has never gained my respect. The proof is in the pudding: when the Kennedy tax cut put most of the money back in the hands of the poor and working poor, who SPENT it, the American economy got more of a jolt out of it than when the Reagan tax cut put most of the money in the hands of "investors," who mostly sat on it.

As for disbanding the CIA, even such well-respected Democrats as Patrick Moynihan have endorsed the "pull-it-out-by-the-roots" approach, arguing that we no longer need such an agency. "Need"? My point is simply that, with respect to every issue, even the most intractable, where there is life, there's hope.

Gregory,

You have a talent for distilling complex political phenomena into few sentences, one I wish I had myself. As for the victory of the Merchant class over the old competitors, I am totally for it! I think of mankind as just another breed of animals (with oversized brains) and am sometimes perplexed at the fact that we get along as well as we do! And in any primate society there is a top banana, we happen to be living in a society where the top banana(s) stay hidden and keep his (their) positions by manipulating secret levers, I just wish I could see it all! I don't know if you enjoy reading nonfiction, if you do, I would recommend "The 12th Planet" by Zechariah Sitchin. I promise you won't ever forget that book if you read it!

John,

Is this the same "Twelfth Planet" that numbers the planets from the outside in (from farthest away from the sun to the closest), postulates an inhabited twelfth planet with has an eccentric orbit that every 3,600 years (I think) brings it close enough to the Earth to permit for the people who live there to visit Earth in rocket ships, and connects the whole thing up with Sumerian mythology? If you are really recommending the same Twelfth Planet I am familiar with, I would have a variety of similar books to recommend to you; let me know.

I often find myself *favorably* comparing America's ruling class to the ruling classes of various other societies and empires in world history; if you don't expect human behavior to be much more civilized that that of other primates, the comparisons are interesting. Ruling classes in history have: (a) kept people as slaves; (b) insisted that they be worshipped as gods; (c) sharpened their knives on peasantry as they saw fit (Japan); (d) retained the right to sleep with the wives of their slaves or servants; (e) considered themselves a separate and higher form of life than their subjects; (f) made themselves wealthy by impoverishing their subjects; (g) insisted that people bow and scrape when in their presence; (h) created religions to institutionalize the racism, castes, and crassness of their rule; and much, much more. The folks who run America don't even want you to know who they ARE, let alone require such extensive and extravagant rights/services. Another way to think of it, though, is that America's ruling class is more powerful and more dangerous than any that has preceded it historically, and its more "civilized" methods of crowd control make the countries and peoples under its control that much more powerful, and that much more likely to enable them to expand their global reach.

(I often refer to the folks who run cultures as "alpha male monkeys.")

As for the victory of the Merchant Class, it means the "reincarnation" of Babylon after all these centuries, the only country in written human history run by its Merchant Class besides modern America. I would give you a long rap about how civilizations have life cycles just like people, but I don't know if such esoterica entertains you. Let me know.

Gregory,

Got to go to work right now so just a few lines. It is the same 12th Planet we are talking about, trust me , read it if you haven't, if you have, please come back with your take on it!

John,

Of course I have read The Twelfth Planet. (I will call the book "the Book" and I will call the planet "Planet XII").

Let me start by saying that it is my opinion that the Bible, read in a certain way, lends support to the theory that modern human beings are a cross between aliens and native humanoids (i.e., "the sons of God found the daughters of men fair..."). Independent information suggests that the cross between these originally separate species might have happened in one or more of several different lands; one such place was Sumeria. [Such attribution is based on, among other curiosities, the Sumerian use of the Base-60 numbering system, supposedly introduced by the aliens, which has never been used in any other country on Earth in history. It should be noted that the advantages of Base-60, especially for scientific work, are quite substantial; if you are interested in such matters, I can elaborate.] So, I was open to the basic premise of the Book before reading it; I figured the author knew what he was talking about.

He kinda did, and he kinda didn't. I got the feeling in reading the Book that the author had gotten hold of a really good tome on Sumerian history and mythology (the line between the two is less than clear), became fascinated with the stories about the humanoid aliens who were said to have come to Sumeria to live and teach the people, dug until he found information suggesting where these aliens originated, and thereupon tried to get as much information as he could to shed light upon or verify these Sumerian legends. Such an approach isn't without merit, especially if it is impossible to find "insider" information. But "insider" information

• does* exist on this matter, and I was disappointed that he didn't have more of it.

In any event, the guy writing the Book seems to have confused what I take to be two different strains of Sumerian legend. If you're going to read a treatment like this, you might as well go directly to occultists and get the story straight; for example, even various books propagated by Eckankar give a straighter treatment of life on other planets in the Solar System, and on the adjustments to "science" required for the things described to be possible, than this Book does.

[I will say one positive thing for going to occultists and getting the story straight: H.G. Wells did, and he ended up writing and publishing accurate scientific information about both of the moons of Mars prior to the sighting or discovery of either moon by scientists.]

Gregory,

Thanks for your take on Planet XII. Maybe I should describe my evolution from religion to atheism a bit. I grew up attending Sunday school when I was around 5, 6, 7 years of age, I got the normal dose of indoctrination which actually left an imprint, to this day I have a preference for the underdog and dislike social inequities.

Around the age of 12, I stopped believing in religion , it became apparent to me that the existence of God was doubtful, and owed its existence probably to nothing more than old legends, used by "the powers that be" for social control. As I matured I marveled at the stupidity of "the masses" (I have a genetic predisposition towards arrogance, duly noted by some of my opponents the debate forum)

A few years ago I "kidded around" with a friend of mine, saying that I would like to start a religion of my own, obviously there is a lot of money available to "the charismatic Prophet/God" along with other benefits, etc., etc. Although this was just in jest, I had the sobering thought, would I (as a new messiah) ever be able to have as profound an impact on society as the existing religions have had. This thought left me awed by the impact and spread of what I perceived as pure legends and superstition. When I was young I thought that everybody born before me were pretty much stupid. At this point in my life I think that the people of ancient Sumeria differ very little from modern human beings in terms to brain equipment, so what on earth could have caused this enormous hold of pure legends and superstition.

At this moment in time I happened to come across a literary reference to "Planet XII" by someone I trusted as a level headed author. I have always been a skeptic so normally I would never have read a book with "blurbs" like this one, but I read it and all of a sudden everything regarding the bible and the impact of religion was explained in a way that "blew" me away. Of course living with "Gods" and seeing their "eternal life" would cause the necessary impact that would perpetuate religion for millennia. I have read all the books in the series and am persuaded that Zechariah Sitchen is on the right track. Of course the details of his theory may be wrong, I myself have problems with the "livability" of Planet XII, with the longevity of their lives, etc., etc., but in general I am astonished with the elegance of his theory given what he had to work with.

It has crossed my mind that Sitchin could be a very good science fiction writer and that the whole thing could be a fraud. I am inclined to doubt this scenario because of the tone present in his books. Unfortunately I stopped reading science fiction early in life so I have no idea whether cosmogony like Sitchen’s is common in that field, whether he could have gotten ideas from "fellow science fiction" writers, etc., etc. Likewise I know nothing about "the occult area" so I can’t evaluate if inspiration might come from that direction.

In case you didn’t read the rest of the "Earth Chronicles", I would recommend "Genesis Revisited", which was written about 15 years after "Planet XII". I mentioned earlier that my inspiration to read "Planet XII", came from reading another book, which also had a reference to a Hopi Native American called Robert Morning Sky. I found his website and bought two of his books. These books are called "The Terra Papers" and "The Star Elder Story". If you think ‘Planet XII" was far out you have seen nothing yet! Suffice it to say that Morning Sky corroborates a lot of Sitchin’s interpretations while adding new information about aspects of the 12th planet that boggles the mind! In any case, I recommend these two books that can only be purchased directly from Morning Sky himself, see: http://www.xroads.com/~rms

John,

Actually, you would be amused at the amount of "bleed" between what you call the "occult area" and sci-fi. Perhaps America's most famous sci-fi "universe," the world of Star Trek, is in major part lifted whole from "occult" sources and UFO literature. [The word "occult" bothers me only in that it means "hidden," and none of this material is hidden any more, really. You no longer have to join a cult, pledge your soul, fast for a month, adventure in the Tibetan Himalayas or Peruvian Andes, look for entrances to the Inner Earth, or much of anything else to be privy to most of the "secrets" kept by "mystery schools" for millennia.] Of course, Earth is *not* the headquarters of the Federation (we'd have noticed), but it's a nice fantasy for the people of a (basically) backward world. [I know it could be worse. You know how the OECD "ranks" countries as "developed," "emerging," "underdeveloped," and so on? Earth would be an "emerging" world as opposed to a "underdeveloped" also-ran.

I became an atheist when I was 9. I came to the conclusion that the Bible was composed of "moral" stories and alleged "miracles," none of which had ever happened while I was watching. I proceeded to study the "religions of the world," the Old and New Testaments (in Hebrew and Greek, respectively), the Koran (I had to settle for a translation), the Gitas, the works of Confucius, texts from Buddhist and Taoist teachers, and anything I could get my hands on, the better to refute religion. I became quite good at it, a model science-worshipping atheist humanist and materialist. (My parents didn't need religious belief to inculcate in me a preference for the underdog and distaste for social inequities.)

When I was 17, an acquaintance at work offered to do my "astrological chart." I thought the idea was ridiculous, but I must have liked the idea of being in a position to debunk a system as baseless as I knew astrology to be. The problem was that his "reading" was extremely accurate about the circumstances of my childhood and upbringing, as well as a variety of other matters; he seemed to know things about me that I was quite certain his system couldn't possibly have been telling him. I wondered how he had found out the things he knew.

The matter churned around in my head for a month before I decided I would learn enough about astrology to prove to myself that it didn't work, and that this acquaintance's "reading" was accurate for other reasons than the vitality of a superstition. Over the next two years, I got so good at doing "astrological readings" that hundreds of people asked me to do "readings" for them. Astrology working was bad enough, ideologically speaking; I needed to find out if any other "occult" systems worked, and I most wanted to know WHY and HOW any of them could *possibly* work. So I studied numerology (Hebrew, Chaldee, Greek, Chinese, Sumerian), mysticism (Kabbalah, Sufiism, various systems of Yoga), "magnetic healing," ritual magick, and a variety of other strange disciplines. They *all* worked to some extent (and some worked very well indeed). [I doubt you want extensive stories on this point, at least at this juncture in my narrative.] It drove me crazy!

My first grand break with "reality" occurred when I was 21. I was very depressed; my first girlfriend was actively scouting for a new man, I was working full-time and going to school (with a full-time schedule) at night, and my life generally was a lifeless blur. I was sitting on a blacked-out subway, stalled between stations, feeling like it was an allegory for my life; the only thing I could see was a clock, way down the track in the station. I drifted into a depressing internal conversation, which led me to the thought "If there really was a God, He could win my loyalties right now with a little demonstration." I made up a silly "test" for God: if He was watching, he would make the subway start at a particular time, some three minutes hence, and otherwise nothing unusual would happen. When the train started at precisely the appointed time, I of course dismissed the coincidence. (There is a nice story in the Bible about this kind of process, which some people refer to as "putting out a fleece.") There would have to be a bit more of a demonstration than THAT.

Over the next three weeks, every single night I remembered three, four, even five dreams (I typically don't remember even one in a month), and each day, at least two of the dreams would come literally true. It got to the point where I could regularly recognize the beginning of the "dream sequences" when they began in waking life and could tell people I was with what would happen next; I scared the heck out of most of my friends. I also found it was "obvious" was people were thinking. I would answer questions before anyone would say anything, and people would get this frightened look and ask how I knew what they were going to ask. After three weeks of living the life of a freak, it came to an abrupt end. I was sitting with friends when I lost consciousness and had two "dreams." In the relevant dream (for the purposes of this story), I was surrounded by what seemed to be a crowd in a stadium, yet I could see no faces or bodies. "They" spoke with a single voice, and asked me if I had gotten a good enough demonstration yet. I had, and wanted it to stop. "They" cooperated, but imposed conditions.

So, I'm not an atheist. I don't know for sure what the deal is, because the more I find out, the more it turns out there is to find out, but there are, in my humble opinion, forces at work in our world that are undreamed of in Horatio's philosophy (to make a Shakespeare reference).

I don't think the "masses" are stupid; at worst, the masses are like innocent children who don't know what lurks for them in the big world. Give each of 'em a few more lives, they'll figure it out....

I've read at least sections of each of the books you reference; I spent an extensive period of my life studying such things as well. And, by the way, it is clear to me, at least, that neither Mr. Sitchin nor Mr. Morning Sky are sci-fi writers.

I will spare you further extensive examinations of my beliefs and/or attitudes with respect to esoterica unless you request otherwise; when you contacted me, you had every reason to expect that you were going to be communicating with someone with opinions about politics and policy, not outer space. It has been so much fun for me to hash over some of this material (it has been so many years since I have told some of these stories to anyone) that I have not considered the limitations of your patience; I know very few people who are engaged by such things.

Gregory,

There is no reason for you to worry about "boring " me with this subject, I rather talk about Sitchin and Morning Sky than politics and policy. I have pretty much said everything I want to say at the debate forum and have found myself losing interest lately at that forum. Anyway, it is clear to me that you have had a most unusual life trajectory, I am usually the only one to have read Sitchin and absolutely nobody in my circle of friends have ever heard of Robert Morning Sky. And pretty much all of them are dismissive when I bring the subject up.

You mention having a problem understanding the orbit of Planet XII. Maybe you'll allow me to refreshen your memory. According to Sitchin and his interpretation of Sumerian legends, a planet entered our solar system from "the deep void" in such a manner that it collided head on with a planet then situated where now the asteroid belt is. Half of that original planet became the asteroids while the other half became our Earth thrown into a different orbit, the orbit the Earth has now. At the same time the comets were created following the same general orbit as the original invader was given once it was caught in our solar system after the collision. That orbit extends way out compared to the orbit of Pluto for instance, thus giving Planet XII the lap time of 3600 years.

Robert Morning Sky claims in his book "The Star Elder Story" that a group of Hopi Indians rescued a barely living extra-terrestrial being in 1947 , hid him from the soldiers and managed to save it's life and were given the history of pretty much the whole galaxy from him. Supposedly these six Hopi Indians in turn mentored a group of more than a dozen youngsters. Morning Sky is one of the members of that group.

In his version of the collision that gave birth to our planet Earth, it is not an planet that enters our solar system but a planet sized "weapons platform", deliberately sent here to subdue a coup d'etat that had taken place here in our solar system (which event gave birth to the legends of Zeus losing his manhood in a fight). This artificial planet (called the Aten in some legends) was incapacitated in the fight but ended up in a kamikaze like attack on the original planet (called Tiamat) . The wreckage of this weapons platform became the 12th planet with it's peculiar orbit. Supposedly when this planet came her for a swing around our solar system 13000 years ago, peculiar circumstances caused the "flood" from the bible, which event of course was anticipated by the "Gods, "who rescued themselves and a few "human beings."

Last august I attended a workshop that Morning Sky gave here in Chicago where I live , and got the latest "scoop" on the "Aten". Supposedly this Aten is an artificial world, which is hollow with a "sun" or energy source suspended at the center. On the inside of the sphere the "crew" grow food and produce everything needed for long "trips” in our galaxy. Sounds incredible, but I have found few weak points in the way he derives his "knowledge". If he is right it is mind blowing to say the least and if he isn't right I bow my head to an accomplished master of story telling.

Your story of being given "proof” of the existence of God/Whatever is compelling. I remain an atheist in rejecting the conventional God of our bible, but am nowadays more open to the mysteries of the universe. Ten years ago I would have scorned the story of Sitchin and Morning Sky, so I have come a long way. By the way, the book where I learned of Sitchin and Morning Sky is called "Alien Agenda", written by Jim Marrs, whom I knew from his writings on the Kennedy assassination. Without that connection I would never have read Alien Agenda since it wasn't in my area of interest. Alien Agenda has stories of similar experiences to what you were describing and might be of interest to you.

John,

How delightful to find someone of comparable interests!

Thank you for refreshing my recollection of some of the theories of the Twelfth Planet and some of Mr. Morning Star's material, which I have always taken as having Mayan as well as Hopi elements. The story of the planet that entered our Solar System from the "deep void," and collided with the planet that once existed where the Asteroid Belt is now, is also handled, in a very academic fashion, by Immanuel Velikovsky in "Worlds in Collision" and his other books. Velikovsky read the legends of a dozen different civilizations and correlated them in a way that is compelling. He argues that the planet you are referring to which came from the "deep void" is now Venus (or Quetzalcoatl, if you prefer), and he provides scientific evidence to think so. He also made predictions about Venus (including a prediction of its surface temperature), based on his theories, which were widely derided at the time but have since been verified. Also, the story about the one-time fifth planet from the Sun, which is often called Marduk in UFO literature but is also occasionally referred to as "Lucifer, the bright and morning star" (see, e.g., "Other Tongues Other Flesh" or one of Adamski's other books), has been told in other ways. One such example is the story in which Marduk's scientists experimented with hydrogen fission (creating a plasma, not fusion into helium), and set off a chain reaction that destroyed the vortex of the planet and caused it to explode (I mentioned this in a previous post -- the source of the Superman story of Krypton). Note also that (a) if Earth were one of the "pieces" of Marduk/Lucifer, Velikovsky's theory would suggest a surface temperature for Earth in excess of 500 degrees F., and (b) Pluto, more than 3 billion miles from the Sun, has a year measured in hundreds of years, not thousands. I wonder just how far out Planet XII would have to be to produce a 3600 year orbit?

I guess I am getting to the heart of what bothers me about Sitchin's book: it combines elements of what I have taken to be a variety of different stories/events, each of which has better background documentation than the Sitchin composite. The orbit of his Planet XII still looks more to me like the orbit of the Dark Companion; the story of the planet from the "deep void" looks like Velikovsky's (more easily proven) theory of the "capture" by the Sun of the planet Venus; and the story of the complete destruction of the planet which once existed between Mars and Jupiter looks like the story of the "fall of Lucifer." Still, I enjoyed the Book immensely when I first read it and would probably enjoy a reread. Everything he says corresponds to *something* which could be validated with reference to "occult" teachings, and his work is valuable if only for that reason alone.

Seems everyone in the Southwest has been clued in by aliens; not only the Hopis and Adamski, but a variety of other UFO writers have had their "contacts" with extraterrestrial intelligences in the Four Corners region.

I remember the name "Alien Agenda" -- maybe I have it on my bookshelf.

The 13,000 year period since the "flood" is significant; it is almost exactly half of the nutational cycle of the Earth (25,920 years). Note also that ice ages have been thought by geologists to have taken place 12,500 years ago, 25,000 years ago, 38,000 years ago, and 50,000 years ago. This ties in to a theory of Platonic months (a/k/a Astrological Ages and/or Biblical Dispensations); if you are interested in it, I will send you an essay I wrote on the subject a few years ago.

Finally, the story of the fully enclosed spaceship-planet built around an energy core should be familiar to anyone living in America as the story of the Starship Enterprise. Of course, I have previously referenced the theory that Deimos and Phobos (the moons of Mars) are hollow and house survivors of what the Marduk catastrophe did to Mars, so the notion of spaceships like the Aten is more widespread than might at first appear to be the case.

Gregory,

I am also delighted to have found someone with similar interests and especially someone that is familiar with sci-fi and occultism that might be able to shed light on Sitchin's and Morning Sky's inspiration in case I have run into two charlatans. I came across Velikovsky and Adamsky in "Alien Agenda", which I am almost certain that you haven't read. That book was published in 1997 and I got the impression that you spent a lot of time researching these topics earlier in your life but has abandoned the effort lately. (I might be wrong). While I have read none of their books, I am intrigued by Velikovsky's approach. From your last e-mail I understand that he condensed old legends into a rational world view of compelling causes and effects. His whole approach reminds me of Sitchin's, with the main difference that Sitchin, as far as I am concerned also explains the Bible and the history of mankind, even the astonishing impact of religions.

I came into this whole "area" as a result of my interest in the assassinations of the 60's. Reading quite a few books, I ran into Vincent Salandria, a Philadelphia attorney who was an early critic of the Warren Commission. I was intrigued by his angle to the whole controversy: "I started my investigation of the Kennedy assassination with the premise that if L.H Oswald were the assassin, everything would fall neatly into place and there would be no lose ends. Unfortunately I found nothing of the sort" (This is my version of his approach).

Lately I have found myself applying the same philosophy to questions of whether God exists and similar propositions. The incredible success of religion and the abundance of occult and sci-fi theories suggest to me that my old position of ridicule and scorn was premature indeed and that I was dealing with a simplified version of reality. As an example we have the person that has lived his whole life in a specific language area surrounded by people speaking the same language. If schools didn't exist and we were dealing with no travel between language areas, that person would be justified in his rejection of the existence of other languages, while in fact he would be totally wrong.

What I am trying to convey is my belief that all these authors and "dabblers in the occult" have "pieces of the whole", out of which they have spun their specific theories. While I have read none of their works, I am skeptical that they will be able to provide the equivalent of Sitchin's anchorage in true and verified texts of the ancient world. I am persuaded that the Sumerians did not make up their legends out of whole cloth, my current belief is that ideas that have no grounding in reality will fall by the way side pretty fast. I am reminded of my CIA theories at the debate forum, (although true), which meet with furious resistance. I think that unfounded "legends" would have been debunked back in the days of the Sumerians also, I doubt that they were very much different from us in mental outlook on life.

I believe that Sitchin is for real. I am still uncertain about Morning Sky though. A genius charlatan could probably come up with his theories. If he could prove to me that he actually wrote the "Terra Papers" before Sitchin's first book I would be delighted since I want to believe his work and his grandfather's encounter with "The Star Elder". If he could prove his knowledge of "Enlil and EA" before Sitchin, the only plausible other explanation would be an elaborate hoax by the CIA, originated in order to confuse mankind and hide the responsibility for it's crimes.

By the way, if you want to reread Sitchin I would recommend you read "Genesis Revisited". That book takes us to the middle of our 90's and discusses Deimos and Phobos and the destruction of the Russian space-probe when it turned it's telescopes towards Phobos, and it also details efforts by the research community to pinpoint the location of planet X. (Suffice it to say that Sitchin comes off as a true prophet). You also mention Marduk, who is a prominent character in Sitchin's world view (one of the sons of EA) and who in Babylon tried to obliterate "all other Gods but himself". He went as far as falsifying the history of the times, putting himself in the stead of other Gods, in order to secure his worldly position forever.

John,

If "Alien Agenda" was published in 1997, I almost certainly have not read it, for the very reasons you adduce. I shall make a point of acquiring it.

Also, please don't misunderstand me to say that either Sitchin or Morning Star are "charlatans." By putting as much information as they can "receive" or can find before the public, they are performing a service, even if their theories are not perfectly accurate.

When you dabble in the "occult sciences," you meet lots of people who don't have any idea what they are doing, others who know just enough to be dangerous, some who are wise enough to be interesting, and a few who have a better grasp of human nature than any psychiatrist or psychologist you are likely to meet. Apart from trial and error, it is very difficult to tell which purported practitioners are which; no one hands out "degrees" attesting to study, "professional" organizations exist mainly to regulate the industry rather than to weed out incompetency, and the endorsements of musicians or movie stars are the single most important factor in the growth of the "psychic" business. After a while, any practitioner who is not an outright embarrassment to the craft is welcomed with relief by the competent.

Using my analogy, Sitchin and Morning Star are at least competent. They have read a lot more, and pondered the subject a lot more, than others have. And given Morning Star's claim to have been a student of people directly contacted by "aliens," his work is subject to at least as much credibility as Adamsky's (who was also given a "history of the galaxy"; popular stuff in UFO lore) -- in fact, a reviewer for a large UFO magazine who was reviewing seminal literature in the field compared these two (and a couple of others who were "direct contactees").

On the other hand, based on your assertion that Sitchin is "real," and to give his work the renewed attention that you feel it deserves, it will be my pleasure to reread "Genesis Revisited," especially if you will look at Velikovsky's first book so that you are also in a position to compare the grounding of Sitchin and Velikovsky. Perhaps they bring different parts of the same feast to the table. And you will be amused to find that Velikovsky also addresses the "miracles" of the Bible in a convincing way. [And, heck, for all I know, it's been so long since I visited Sitchin that when I read him I may recognize raps I've been giving people for years, without even remembering exactly where they came from -- the Marduk rap and the series of Russian Phobos failures ring a bell.]

I, too, respect the Sumerians for their science, literature, arts, and culture. The modern notion that people have only been "advanced" in the past 100-150 years is based on arrogance and a refusal to look at opposing evidence. Sumerian "astrologers" were correct in their predictions of weather, human events, and romantic compatibility in excess of 90% of the time; we have no comparable modern abilities, even with respect to weather alone.

I was also a "student" of the Kennedy assassination for a while, until it became clear to me that such plots, successful and otherwise, have happened regularly throughout (unrecorded) history, usually to much less effect than their perpetrators could have imagined.

John,,

You don't become "rich and famous" advancing theories like Sitchin's or Morning Star's; yes, "new age" books now constitute a multi-billion dollar industry, but individual writers and researchers rarely make better than a middle-class income (when they do that well). I lived in the world of academe long enough to know that you don't make up theories likely to get half your colleagues looking at you like you're a nut so that you can "get rich."

George Adamsky is the Adamsky, all right, and my favorite of his is "Other Tongues, Other Flesh," which has been changed a bit since the original hard-cover version but which is still a fun read. And I think you will find Velikovsky a nice addition to your existing store of information on such matters. As ridiculous as "anti-gravity" devices seem to some people, there are a number of books cataloguing literature on the subject over the past twenty years, including treatments of the Hutchinson Effect (a use of Nikola Tesla's research to produce an energy field that seems to negate gravity). Further, testimony from Bob Lazar, an ex-employee at Area 51 in Nevada's Groom Lake area, suggests that American engineers are "reverse engineering" flying devices that appear to use magnetic waves to negate gravity.

My first reaction to numerology, even more than to astrology, was that it was absurd on its face. How could the letters of a person's name have any effect on that person? How could the numbers in an address predict the sorts of experiences that one would have while living there? How could the numbers of a birthday (not the astrological information derived by reference to ephemeredes and calculations based thereon) accurately predict the sorts of events one would encounter in the normal course of life? In fact, numerology virtually disproves the idea that the "occult sciences" are based on "cause and effect." [Many people who practice one or another system of astrology genuinely believe that the individual planets or other celestial objects *cause* the influence which is attributed to them astrologically, a notion I now categorically reject.]

Gregory,

While I am waiting for your "take" on reality and it's mysteries, maybe I should describe the world view I have arrived at since I read Marrs book "Alien Agenda". Up until around 10 years ago, I was a confirmed skeptic and a determined atheist, chucking overboard everything that couldn't be accessed through science and rational thought. I had and have nothing but contempt for the God of the Old Testament, obviously designed by the ruling classes to ensure social control of "the masses."

Then I read a few books about aliens and found that I couldn't totally reject the concept of other "intelligences" being out there, but habits of skepticism are hard to break so my acceptance of a more multi-dimensional world had to wait for an author I trusted implicitly, which happened to be Jim Marrs, who wrote a great book on the Kennedy assassination. I found myself standing in a bookstore staring at a book by him about aliens wondering why on earth he would write about such a subject. I got the book, "Alien Agenda", and found it to be a "twin book" to the one I referenced earlier, the difference being that it was about a new subject.

Suffice it to say that Marrs had an impact on me, which led to my exploration of Sitchin and Morning Sky and a more or less complete acceptance of especially Sitchin's world view. I am inclined to believe Morning Star also but still have reservations about him. I still have problems with accepting the existence of what we commonly refer to as "God", while I by now accept the existence of aliens of all kinds and stripes and also some kind of multi dimensional world although I can't in any way picture that concept in my mind.

My explanation of astrology and numerology, etc., hinges upon a salesman's psychology. If I were the astrologer or numerologer, I would be pretty careful to give only pleasing news to my "client". In order to be trust worthy I would have to add some negative things also but would present those in a pretty and general package, so that most everyone would be able to recognize him(her)self. In general I have the attitude that what we now can not explain about our world, we will be able to explain sometime in the future.

I gathered you are Jewish from one of your earlier e-mails. You might be interested in my theory on the worldly success of the Jewish people: Starting with the observation that Jews in general seem to be very successful as merchants and bankers, I made it my task to come up with a plausible explanation. Given that the gentiles were not allowed to charge interest in medieval Europe (only area I am familiar with), I surmised that Jews congregated heavily in the financial sector of the economy (and merchant companies), hence acquiring know-how handed down through generations. Due to general hostility of the "host country" , there was a weeding out of members of the Jewish community that couldn’t compete with their more successful brethren, leaving the Jewish community later with a higher IQ level than their "host" communities.

I was pretty sure that my theory "held water" until I ran into Morning Sky’s version of the history of the Jewish people. According to him a certain group of people from Nibiru (distinguished from the Annunaki) managed to "immigrate" to our earth, they settled in Sumer where they became known as "the people from Nibiru", or the "Ibri", which in turn became "Hebrew". No wonder that you and your folks are "the chosen people." According to Sitchin’s theories, one of the dangers from the perspective of the Annunaki, was the deterioration of the genetic inheritance of the Annunaki through interbreeding with the "humans." So now I know the real reason why the Jewish community seem to have a higher IQ level than us gentiles!?!

Gregory,

My "shallow" response to astrology, numerology and similar disciplines is what I have already described, the astrologer, numerologer, etc. follows a set of rules, outlining character-traits that are desirable in general with some weaknesses that also are common in the populace at large. Then the recipient's ego does the rest, embracing the positive "stuff" with recognition of the negative "stuff" also. I hasten to add that of course there is no conscious deception on the part of the practitioner, he (she) is just a "teacher" of ancient folk wisdom.

My "updated" response is that at least astrology must have been a "gift" from the "Annunaki" ( I have very little doubt about the accuracy of Sitchen's theories, although he may be far "off" in many details, I think the core of his ideas is correct). Regarding numerology, I don't know how far back in time it has been practiced, suffice it to say that I wouldn't be surprised if it has it's roots going all the way back to Sumer also. You very ably describe the concept of "nutation" and the different "ages" that are related to it, I am not very familiar with anything but the general idea of it and of course of the fact that our Earth actually does "perform" this cycle. I am positive that the people of Sumer (and/or other people) would not have been able to come up with the concept of nutation without the help of an advanced civilization. Witness their knowledge of several planets that were only recently "discovered" and their advanced knowledge of astronomy in general, not to mention their obsession with keeping track of the cycle of nutation (of course I have gotten all this from Sitchin). I am inclined to think that "astrology" was "given" to the people of Sumer just as astronomy was. Since I have grudgingly started to accept the concept of "soul" I might as well go out on a limb and propose that we human beings are born and at the same time infused with a "soul" by an intelligence(s) following a specific set of rules, related to astronomy, that were "covertly" given to us in the form of astrology. Numerology is a harder nut to crack, but at least part of it seem to be related to day of birth, which brings us back to "astronomy" at a specific date again! I tend to believe that if I was a citizen of "the 12th Planet" (whether it is used as a "stop-over" by our "Gods" or is in fact their home planet), I would marvel at the inability of the "earthlings" to understand the intricacies of their personality traits.